The gun issue (split from Stargate idea)

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#21

(1) Every person commits an offence and is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 months or to a fine not exceeding $1,000 or to both who, [color=red]except for some lawful and sufficient purpose, [/color]presents a firearm, airgun, pistol, or restricted weapon (whether or not the firearm, airgun, pistol, or restricted weapon is loaded or capable at the time of the offence of discharging any shot, bullet, missile, or other projectile) at any other person

this is an important point for our purposes.

#22

I’m definitely in, for organising/playing/whatever.

I agree with everyone who says that safety has to be paramount. We don’t want to get someone hurt - if it went very badly wrong, we could end up with someone seriously wounded, if not dead. Even with safe gear. If that happened, it could very well shut down LARPing in New Zealand for a long time, and I love LARP too much to disregard that.

#23

Thanks for the info guys. I feel this topic needs to be discussed at some point as more LARPs in the future will involve guns and we need to know the options.
I have heard (from David) that there is a LARP that uses guns but the points of damage are called out. I’d like to see as many options before deciding what to use.
Who knows we may have several ‘test’ games to see which system works best.

I must say as a Massage Therapist safety is of big importance to me as I want no-one to get hurt.

#24

Soft air guns hurt…Cant we just use those guns that shoot ping pong balls? Bigger than an eye socket

#25

there are many ptions we could look at that dont involve bb’s or paintballs,

lazer tag is one

but i think that ping pong ball guns might reduce the seriuosness of the concept a little too much.

#26

What do these guns look like? Got any web links?

Even if they’re not suitable for Stargate, they might suit another game.

EDIT: I found a link: backyardartillery.com/burpgun/

They look kinda cool actually, and they’re not terribly expensive. You could paint them up to suit a particular game.

Also, they come in rifle and pistol, and the pistol has a shorter range. Instant variety in power, no rules needed.

I wonder if you could get them looking suitably flintlock-like for Warhammer.

Also wonder how safe they are.

#27

Yep those are them. They are REALY safe…imagine being hit with a pingpong ball. I used to have one when I was little and they dont hurt at all.

#28

Here’s the manufacturer:

burpgun.com/

Apparently the ammo is slightly smaller than a pingpong ball (probably so that you have to buy from ammo them). They sell black ammunition, too, which would suit for blackpowder weapons. I reckon these are definitely worth investigating (i.e. buying a sample and trying it out) for Warhammer. We could do a lot towards building a suitable gun prop over the top of them. And the ammo being over-sized is no problem I reckon, we just say it’s that way in the setting.

Wonder if anyone in NZ sells them.

Prices are US $25 for a long gun, US$18.50 for a pistol, and US$7 for a pack of 10 ammo. But it’s all cheaper from that first site I linked to, actually.

Ammo would be re-usable OOC, unlike paintball and airsoft.

The only weird thing about them is that rubber muzzle, looks like it has to be folded back before shooting. It would make sense for blackpowder weapons to require preparation before firing, although it also looks like you can probably fire a lot of them in quick succession which doesn’t make so much sense. Really need a look at one.

Unfortunately the video of them firing isn’t there, the link is bad.

#29

Jesus Carl!

Thanks heaps for all the scaremongering, way to give Airsoft a great image.

I’ve been playing with the APA (Auckland Players of Airsoft) for the last 10 or so months now. I’ve been to all sorts of games from dense NZ bush to open farmland to an old factory.

Airsoft hurts. But all you need is eye/face protection. I play in a pair of Strikers and they work fine.

Some people play in full face masks but even that’s not necessary unless you really want to as wearing a mask for hours gets to be a pain in the arse.

Occasionally you might get shot in the face, and yes - it hurts, you might get some welts even but they’ll go away. And this is from playing with seriously upgraded competition-grade guns which I seriously doubt anyone would buy for a LARP.

That said, if you decide to run an Airsoft Larp (Which I think is a great thing), I’d suggest you contact a senior member from our club to come along and give a safety lesson to all players. I suggest you also have ‘Safe’ zones where no guns are allowed to enter to allow people to take off their masks and goggles.

You can also place FPS (feet per second) limits on guns and have a chronometer at the game to measure the speed at which the bb is fired. That way you can control the power at which people are shot. Our club has no FPS limit apart from our indoor field which means frequently coming up against people who are shooting at 500-600fps. I’d recommend a fps limit of 300 for an airsoft larp as this is around the stock standard for most guns and hurts alot less.

There are three types of airsoft guns: electric, gas and spring.

Spring guns fire a single shot then you need to pull the slide or bolt back again for another shot. These are generally the cheapest.

Gas guns release a small amount of gas to propel the bb. Many gas semi-automatic pistols can be found. These fire a shot every time you pull the trigger until you run out of bb’s or gas.

Electric guns have a small motor that re-cocks the spring with no effort from the user. Automatic guns (Hold the trigger and it keeps firing until the trigger is released) are electrics, they are usually known as AEGs (Automatic Electric Guns).

Important note: Full auto guns are ILLEGAL in NZ. Apart from the ones that were permanently converted before the ban there are electric guns allowed in the country. Trying to import one will end up in it being confiscated and you spending your money with nothing to show for it.

As for buying guns in NZ - DONT!

Trademe is a ripoff haven for airsoft guns. Those $50 jobbies on there are worth more like $5. If you want a decent gun it’s best to buy online (Usually from Hong Kong) and ship it to NZ. This usually works out alot cheaper than buying from a store like Young’s Airguns as they mark them up to pay their overheads. If you want advice on guns, visit the airsoft forum and just ask.

And lastly - age. In NZ the law for owning and using Airsoft guns is 18 UNLESS you are aged 16 or older with a firearms licence. If you are older than 18 you dont require a licence.

The last game I went to was yesterday, it was a MilSim game (Military Simulation) and we had about 50 players there.

It was an awesome day, and the funniest thing is that it’s actually quite similar to LARP but the people playing dont realise it.

People dressing up as something they’re not (Apart from the several players who are real soldiers) and then going out on missions and trying to complete objectives.

Anyway, I think that’s everything.

I’d definitely be keen on a Stargate LARP. I actually remember reading about a small Airsoft team in the US that plays with a Stargate theme (There are teams that play with all sorts of themes - Viet Nam era, WW2 era, etc.).

And I know for sure that I’d try and borrow one of these for the game!

#30

Ah, that was the airsoft gun I was saying I’d seen.

#31

although the gummi and the pingpong guns are possible alternatives, i would probably still opt for running a beta game using airsoft to get everyones reactions, saftey saftey saftey, check and re-check.
but from what Alex is saying they don’t sound really as bad as they have been hyped to be. IT IS still important to be cautious and thats the reason we would have a beta game filled with saftey saftey saftey just to get OUR heads around it.

#32

Thanks for your sage adice, Alex. I think a bunch should definately run a “trial game” to see what ball bearing fighting is like. What would your group think, Alex, of half a dozen people turning up together to discuss and play along?

#33

[quote=“Alex”]
Thanks heaps for all the scaremongering, way to give Airsoft a great image.

I’ve been playing with the APA (Auckland Players of Airsoft) for the last 10 or so months now. I’ve been to all sorts of games from dense NZ bush to open farmland to an old factory. [/quote]

You know i have been waiting for you to get involved in this, for some reason i knew that whatever i put up you would disagree.

[quote=“Alex”]
[color=red]Airsoft hurts.[/color] But all you need is eye/face protection. I play in a pair of Strikers and they work fine.

Some people play in full face masks but even that’s not necessary unless you really want to as wearing a mask for hours gets to be a pain in the arse.[/quote]

i think we have already discussed this and we realise that yes there is a certain amount of pain involved. but however you cannot deny that there is a certain amount of risk of serious injury involved with using soft guns. Particulary eye injury so we must remove or lessen as much as we can the risk of injury. which is all i am concerned about, as far as the reputation of airsoft games in Auckland, i could care less, i care about LARPing you guys can look after yourselves.

[quote=“Alex”]
Occasionally you might get shot in the face, and yes - it hurts, you might get some welts even but they’ll go away. And this is from playing with seriously upgraded competition-grade guns which I seriously doubt anyone would buy for a LARP.[/quote]

are trying to excuse the potential danger of getting shot in the face or are you telling us all to harden up and get over it. because if it is the latter .
[size=75]Ed’s note: keep it clean[/size]

[quote=“Alex”]
That said, if you decide to run an Airsoft Larp (Which I think is a great thing), I’d suggest you contact a senior member from our club to come along and give a safety lesson to all players. [color=red] I suggest you also have ‘Safe’ zones where no guns are allowed to enter to allow people to take off their masks and goggles. [/color] [/quote]

way ahead of you alex david and i are already talking about this. please understand two things alex. 1 i ave been involved in shooting and shooting sports for close to fifteen years, pistol, rifle, and yes Airsoft. i was playing air soft when the guns first came on the market, even before the electronic guns were available, my spring action MP5 ws one of the first SMG style guns to come into the country. so i am not trying to scare monger anything i am trying to make people AWARE of the risks that are involved.

I am keen for this larp to happen as much as you are but what i do not want in any way shape or form is to have any gung ho rambo wannabees running around like idiots thinking that its ok because they are only “Soft Guns”

you have the contacts in your airsoft club so instead of knocking me down for being a voice of safety and common sense why dont you get on board and help us out.

[quote=“Alex”]
You can also place FPS (feet per second) limits on guns and have a chronometer at the game to measure the speed at which the bb is fired. That way you can control the power at which people are shot. Our club has no FPS limit apart from our indoor field which means frequently coming up against people who are shooting at 500-600fps. I’d recommend a fps limit of 300 for an airsoft larp as this is around the stock standard for most guns and hurts alot less.[/quote]

would you be willing to take charge of this side of the safety regs, seriously alex please be open about this and stop the pissing contest, our Prime concern must be safety or this will never happen.

[quote=“Alex”]
There are three types of airsoft guns: electric, gas and spring.

Spring guns fire a single shot then you need to pull the slide or bolt back again for another shot. These are generally the cheapest.

Gas guns release a small amount of gas to propel the bb. Many gas semi-automatic pistols can be found. These fire a shot every time you pull the trigger until you run out of bb’s or gas.

Electric guns have a small motor that re-cocks the spring with no effort from the user. Automatic guns (Hold the trigger and it keeps firing until the trigger is released) are electrics, they are usually known as AEGs (Automatic Electric Guns).

Important note: Full auto guns are ILLEGAL in NZ. Apart from the ones that were permanently converted before the ban there are electric guns allowed in the country. Trying to import one will end up in it being confiscated and you spending your money with nothing to show for it.

As for buying guns in NZ - DONT!

Trademe is a ripoff haven for airsoft guns. Those $50 jobbies on there are worth more like $5. If you want a decent gun it’s best to buy online (Usually from Hong Kong) and ship it to NZ. This usually works out alot cheaper than buying from a store like Young’s Airguns as they mark them up to pay their overheads. If you want advice on guns, visit the airsoft forum and just ask.[/quote]

all of this is a side issue right now, we are trying to sort out the logistics of safety and how to play the guns safely so please dont bog the discussion down with technical bullshit that we dont really need to know.

right now Alex the game is till in the first phases of design and planning, and nothing is going to kill the whole concept dead quicker than a pissing contest. our attitude has to be that soft guns are dangerous, and we have to treat then as Real Guns, as lethal as a twelve gauge shotgun, as soon as we start treating them as “toys” or “Soft” guns then we are setting ourselves up for a mighty big fall.

the guys that are in your club are all enthusiasts who have a real interest in shooting and shooting sports, i dont know the club but i would expect that a large number have firearms safety training and are involved in other forms of shooting. peole who have this level of training and experience are in the minoroty in Larping at the moment. so comparing your Milsim games to a larp (although completely true) is rather innappropriate. you play with poeple who have a high level of firearms safety ingrained at a instinctive level.

I dont want to insult anyone here so please if i do i apologise, but we have to work at the level of the lowest common denominator here, and that is a gung ho navy seal wannabee who thinks that because he has played a couple of paintball games and has a spirng powered glock under his pillow he can rule the world. and work our way up to people like you alex who know what they are on about and treat guns (any guns) with the respect they deserve.

get behind the safety issues Alex dont dismiss them, if we put the hard yards into this game and make sure that all the accidents that we can prevent are prevented and the unexpected is expected and systems to minimise its effects are put in place before the fist player is even signed up then the game is going to be remembered as a great success, and not the game where someone lost an eye.

So would you be willing to join the planning team and work with me and David on the safety issues?

#34

Carl asked me to post this link to a lasertag alternative:

battlefieldsports.com/weapons.htm

EDIT: Having looked the site over, it’s aimed at businesses. They don’t sell to general public, guns are over US$1,000 each and only sold in sets of 21.

On the bright side they’re apparently very effective even in sunlight, are metal and heavy, and make appropriate noises.

#35

I’ve investigate laser tag systems as well. This page has some good links. It’s either expensive or DIY (i.e. hard work), or not much better than a toy (e.g. hasbro tag toys).

The other option is paintball, which can be expensive and dangerous too. I’ve played a paintball game at 300 fps and had lots of bruises, and was even bleeding from one shot to my upper arm. And you need to wear serious eye/face protection.

Airsoft (how’s that for a euphemism ?) looks like a good system to investigate first up. There are lots of options in terms of weapon type and fps to choose from, plus the prices are not prohibitive.

Because of the potential for bruising, I suggest that any game is staged in winter so players can wear extra layers without getting too hot.

Plus, outlaw headshots. Some paintball games allow headshots, and you basically end up with more people getting hit in the head.

#36

Laser tag looks the best for LARP by a long shot, but the price is absolutely prohibitive – to the point where a whole extra club would be needed and it’d be a waste if we didn’t use/sell the use of the weapons every weekend.

There’s at least NZD$200 worth of electronics alone in the gun/sensorpack on the MilesTag site. We should probably allow an extra $100 for the decorations around that. So to get a game rolling, we’d need about a $3000 investment and a whole lot of geeks with a whole lot of soldering irons and a whole lot of time. Ultimately it’s probably worthwhile, but it’s unlikely to get off the ground this generation.

So I emailed Megazone, who charge $400 to have the Ponsonby spot from 10pm-1am (I’m sure this used to be longer). From memory Megazone allows three teams of five in “the maze” at any time.

[quote]Hi guys

I’m from a group called nzLARPS who run elaborate games of play pretend for grown ups. We want to run a game at Megazone but we want to know the capabilities of the software first (probably the game will be one long campaign with a highly customised ruleset).

We have plenty of geeks and hackers who are into the nitty gritty of it so if there’s documentation online or a single editable config file you could send us to try and conform to, we’d be keen to see it. For example, we may want to run a game where if you destroy the opponents base you become invulnerable with a highly powerful gun for one minute. Or that players can shoot their own base to arrange “diplomacy” and a siren will sound the next time someone has been tagged (and war will break out again).

Could you send us this documentation and/or a description of the system’s capabilities?

Craig[/quote]

Ultimately with laser tag we need a flexible, open source protocol that games can be written on, so I’m keen to see how elastic the one they use at Megazone is.

#37

david has the plans for laser tag weapons and we have at least two electricians in the group.

so we could make them ourselves, but yes exquire is right, it would be costly and labour intensive, but all the same very much in keeping with our DIY philosophy.

but i am with exquire i think laser tag would be the way to go, the further from things like soft guns or painball we aget the better.

no offense to the air soft gunners or paintballers out there but there is just too much to go wrong.

#38

Is there anywhere we can hire full-on laser tag weapons like we see above?

Note: We can’t make our own airsoft guns.

Laser guns are also software intensive, but this, IMHO is part of the creativity part. If we can arrange some killer firmware as a base, we can let the whole system compile based on simple config files in plain English (or near to).

Consider also that the rules of your game can be written in software code. Every player will be carrying an on-board computer and broadcasting (presumably) an RFID signal. We can allow headshots (even make them worth more), require a medic (with the right tool) to heal specific wounds (disabling the gun for critical wounds). And obviously technology is advancing rapidly around laser signals.

And of course, weapons and computers can be flashed for different games.

How much does David’s plan cost? What exactly does it make?

Note: laser weapons cannot be used around water.
Note: laser weapons are unlikely to be ready in time for any game we have here on the board.

#39

there is company that does hire them out, i know i have seen them but i cant for the life of me remember where or the companies name.

[quote=“Exquire”]
How much does David’s plan cost? What exactly does it make?[/quote]

no idea, david has yet to work out the details, the wiring and internal stuff is apparently easy for someone with the right tekky skills but i think it would be the frames that would be the most work.

#40

With all the kit ready, I reckon 10 people and one pizza-heavy sleepover weekend, followed by months of parents-basement coding and another weekend of shell construction.

Please remember this.