Note: This topic has been split from the Stargate idea thread to talk about all things guns in all things LARP.
Yesterday I hung out with Alex and his air-soft gun.
This gun is a replica shotgun that fires plastic BBs at about 300 feet per second (this is tunable). They hurt, but not more than paintballs or hard foam fighting. The effect is pretty instataneous (ie, you shoot, they fall), and the guns are available in many formats (big shotguns like this, handguns, etc). However, they are inditinguishable from real guns and need to be used in a totally secure environment. Not sure on price but I think handguns start around $100.
This is one highly immersive alternative to water pistols, and it’s suitable for a sci-fi larp with combat. What are people’s thoughts?
I’ve played a game using bb guns before, We all wore some sort of eye protection though. From just those cheap plastic googles to more expensivre cool looking things.
Alex looks frekin’ scary in that get up…
And it is very lifelike. Also the pricing on those could cause some problems for some players, i.e students. However they do seem much better than a water pistol.
There’s a UK game called N.E.X.U.S. that uses airsoft guns: n-e-x-u-s.org
Handguns are less accurate and have shorter ranges than longer guns, so I reckon they’d be disadvantaged enough without introducing different damage types. I reckon 1 shot = you’re down is easiest. You could make hand-to-hand work differently, although for my tastes 1 shot = down would be perfectly fine there too.
I remember seeing a discussion on Pagga about airsoft guns that looked exactly like some of the firearms from Stargate. Was a weird-looking automatic I think.
i would strongly reccomend not using soft air guns, you are opening yourself and LARPS up to a total mine feild of legal and sfaety issues that could get quite nasty.
remember soft air guns are classed by the NZ Police as firearms and are governed under the same laws and regulations.
Actually, I did some research on it yesterday and 30FPS soft ball bearing guns are quite safe to use in a controlled environment, but do look identical to handguns. You can get one as cheaply as $80, and a real good looker like an M13 or USP for $130. They’re not as accurate as the droolworthy shotgun above, but they’re fairly safe and highly realistic.
Tisdalls on Queen Street sells them by checking your ID (18+) and writing your name in a “has a gun book”. Require proof of ID and drivers license/ passport number. You walk out of the shop with a soft ball bearing handgun.
yeah, get hit in the eye with one and see how you feel, even a low power soft gun will bring a hell of a welt, and take a round in the eye and you could lose your sight temporarily if not permantantly.
these things are not toys and should never be trated as such.
ok you stand still and from six feet i will shoot you in the face with a low power soft air gun and if you are comfortable with the way it feels not a problem.
Why am i the only voice of reason here?
Under the Mordavia rules range weapons must be of a low power and the projectiles must have a diameter of no less than 50 millimeters and be padded with soft foam.
and you are now talking about allowing weapons that fire a 6mm hard plastic pellet travelling anything up to 300 feet per second.
this is simple and i really dont care who dis-aggrees with me, if you play a larp with soft air guns eventually someone will get hurt, seriously, and then the police will start crawling down the throats of not just the organisers but NZLARPS as well. and i guarantee it maybe not in the first game, maybe not in the second but eventually it will happen.
Understand that i am not trying to stop the game from happening, all i am doing is trying to make the organisers realise that if they go into this with such a cavalier attitude to soft air guns they are setting themselves up for a whole world of trouble.
and anyone who has ever had anything to do with shooting or firearm safety should aggree with me.
seriously guys dont go this way you will regret it
I agree that safety with firearms shouldn’t be approached lightly. You’d want people on board who have experience with airsoft safety briefings, you’d want to get across to everyone the absolute importance of the safety rules, and you should really think carefully about whether your player base are going to be comfortable abou the inevitable stinging welts that will occur before going down the airsoft road at all. But I don’t think it can be ruled out as an option out of hand.
There are quite a few larps around the world using airsoft guns. They use the same precautions as airsoft combat games - everyone wears goggles, etc. I haven’t heard any issues yet, although of course that doesn’t mean there haven’t been any. The games that I’m aware of are relatively low-combat, often with limited ammo. I imagine that a Stargate game would be similar - a lot of talking, a little shooting.
It might be worth looking into “gummi guns” as well. They are toy guns that fire soft pellets.
every played paintball carl yeah that provides mighty welts if your not wearing extra padding, but thats why you wear extra nice cushny padding thumbs up
also anyone shooting from 6ft away , are not thinking first acting later. and should seriously reconsider playing in that larp , that or by the time they have fired , they would be linched for unsafe behavior.
include meele weapons in the game , combat knives e.t.c and only allow these at close distances.
hell you swing steel with other people and you may claim “but i am well trained” and as that stands as true, there is still a very real danger of something going wrong , yet you still do it. why ? cos your fully aware and have been briefed on the ‘very real’ dangers involved and have agreed to abide and act on the Rules and terms of participation.
there are age limits
there are rules
and there is a certain level of skill you must have before you can participate (but lets face it a large chunk of steel in untrained hands is alot more dangerous than a plastic pallet)
do the same with the stargate larp.
clear and fair rules. (like do not fire your airsoft weapon past (distance here) it is deemed seriously unsafe behavior and you may be removed from the premise)
an age limit. (hell you have to be 18 to walk out of the shop with an airsoft)
have a weapons saftey check before each game.
this is just my reasoning as to why i would play such a game. However yes carl i do agree there is a very real danger with these guns however, i as a player would be happy to accept the reprocussions of my actions by participating in that enviroment.
When I was a kid, my uncles (and those of you who know my family history will know about these guys) and I used to play a game with air rifles. we’d spend hours stalking each other in the bush, shooting lead slugs about. Those little buggers often need to to dug out, and when they didnt they left a screaming bruse for ages. We ddnt use safty gear, just the dont shoot any one in the head. I have to say that the game you are p-lanning sounds rather unpredictable. When a person is on the other end oif a gun, they will often wave it about to get a point across. Often they will shoot at people thinking they are being funny.
And Porl can vouch for the validity of the pain that the plastic BBs cause, just ask him.
you cant really vouch for safty, as you cant judge each individual.
And can I just point out, gooly shots, nipple shots, and shots to any joint hurt like a bugger. In order to get this to a workable state you might have to rule shots tocertain places are banned, but then how do you police it? and what about people that make mistakes? theres only so many times a person will accept sorry for being shot in the balls.
There must be a better way.
just my two cents, umm, five cents, no it must be ten cents now.
How can a person use figurative speech when the government keep pulling the coins out of circulation?
Yes and still do, and i have played air soft as well, and i been a pistol shooter for five years gaining two seperate NZPA safety qualifications, and i have been a skeet shooter and a rifle shooter, and i have done a number of firearm safety courses. And i have worked with professional armourers on film sets. So I have a fair bit of knowledge on this subject.
thats the level you have to accept and plan for, not someone getting hit in a battle but during a quiet time of non combat role playing when some standing next someone else has an accidental discharge and nails them in the face.
yeah goggles work but ALL players and NPC’s in the game would have to wear them AT ALL TIMES.
there are safety measures you can put in place for a game like this to work and all i am asking is that those measures are put into place and made policy before we start running around with bb guns.
I am keen for this game I think would be a very cool experiment in larping, but as soon as you throw guns into it the responsibility of the organisers towards safety has to go dramatically up.
And it does, which we is why whenever we train, spar, or go into Mellee combat we put the maximum emphasis on safety, no one spars without protective equipment, and no one with less than six months experience is allowed to spar interclub or in a mellee, and the first thing you learn when you start is Control and Control is reinforced over and over again.
but we are talking about putting guns into the hands of people with limited training (if any) and no clear understanding of how to control thier weapons and how to be safe around them.
does that make it OK to put a gun into untrained hands.
[quote=“Rorax”]
have a weapons saftey check before each game.[/quote]
and continual checks during the game, in fact at the end of each phase of combat all weapons must be cleared and checked by an armouer or safety officer.
[quote=“Rorax”]
i as a player would be happy to accept the reprocussions of my actions by participating in that enviroment. [/quote]
as is everyone who plays any kind of contact sport that could involve risk of injury, but the organisers must do absolutely evrything in thier power to minimise those risks or they are at fault. Once is an accident, twice is negligent.
and rorax thank you for your points they were well thought out and intelligent this could have so easily turned into a pissing contest, but you went to the effort of making some very valid arguements, and I thank you
I’m really glad this conversation is going on. I absolutely agree we need to know the risks before we go into this.
I found some more guns today, cheaper still. Then I talked to Alex who reckons it’s best to import them yourself rather than buy them in the country. He’s told me to go to www.airsoft.net.nz - which I haven’t yet - to check stuff out with the current practicioners.
Personally I wouldn’t want to to into this without at least:
jeans
gas mask (goggles not enough for me)
Gloves
The guns I’ve been looking at are spring-loded. There are also gas powered ones which are too powerful/potentially too powerful for my liking.
If people are looking at importing, I hear that “gummi” guns are extremely safe.
I know that no-one here has probably heard of them. There doesn’t seem to be much info on the web about them (possibly I’m using the wrong name for them).
And here is a discussion about the use of gummi guns in larp, where som people say they’re much safer than airsoft and suitable for larp (I suspect they’re using them without eye protection):
no prob carl i do prefer having proper conversation over flame wars any day, great points may i add!
those gummi guns don’t look to bad if i do say so my self , if there a safer and cheaper alternative , why not ? i mean they don’t particularly look like modern or known styles but all the better right ? there are probably more types out there anyway if yah look hard enough.
glad to hear that, i would push for not just eye protection but face and front of throat protection, one suggestion would be full face clear welding masks, although i have found that clear plastic does have a disturbing tendancy to “spider” when hit by a BB. even though they are small they do pack some punch, and some plastics can break.
stay away from gas too many hassles, reloading re filling and tuning. not too mention the power, too high.
but remember that safety is not our only concern, The Police would shit themselves if we went ahead with this without taking the legal problems into account. I really don’t want to have a AOS member point a real shotgun at me (again ).
and just so you know the following is a direct cut and paste from the Arms act of 1983
(1) Every person commits an offence and is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 months or to a fine not exceeding $1,000 or to both who, except for some lawful and sufficient purpose, presents a firearm, airgun, pistol, or restricted weapon (whether or not the firearm, airgun, pistol, or restricted weapon is loaded or capable at the time of the offence of discharging any shot, bullet, missile, or other projectile) at any other person
Does a soft air gun (or “toy”) count as a restricted weapon?
Is breaking this law a criminal offense?
The gummi guns seem to be MUCH MUCH softer, and I’m worried about their range. For example, the shop sells paper fold-ups for target practice. Would we feel their shots through clothing at all?
Does a soft air gun (or “toy”) count as a restricted weapon?
Is breaking this law a criminal offense?[/quote]
first off dont get into the trap of calling anything airsoft a “toy” consider them guns as the police do it is easier and stops ambiguity.
presents a firearm, [color=red]airgun[/color], pistol, or restricted weapon (whether or not the firearm, [color=red]airgun,[/color] pistol, or restricted weapon [color=red]is loaded or capable [/color]at the time of the offence [color=red]of discharging any shot, bullet, missile, or other projectile[/color]) at any other person
soft guns fall into the category of “Air Guns” in the arms act which means according to the letter of the law… yep sure does, and if you tested it the police would bring the full weight of the law upon your head.
remember the case of the kid in south auckland who pointed a soft gun at a cop and got a 9mm hangover cure for his troubles, they will not examine the differences they will just show the act and say its a gun and you are nicked.
the police actually hate soft air guns and really dont have much time anyone who tries to make out that they are just toys, so it pays not to push the issue.
i do prefer having proper conversation over flame wars any day, great points may i add!
).